Join ratios slippin? Rebills slippin? Here's why...

[TheDoc]

While we have been ok with sales we have had some rather odd days.. With that we started to update more yet retention seems to slowly be slippin down the drain.. So I started to talk with Steve Lightspeed and a couple others about the problem and found out some nasty info...


Over 200 million reissued cards this summer..

40 million from Master Card's frauded..
http://money.cnn.com/2005/06/17/news/master_card/

Higher minimum payouts on credit card payments. "Average household credit card debt was about $9,300 last year"
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05273/580132.stm

Credit card hacks are on the rise so reissuing cards is on the rise.
http://australianit.news.com.au/arti...tml?from=r ss

And now the rising price of gas..

Moreless this means a decline in rebills and a blow to fresh sales..

[Mako]

Good post Doc, and actually the higher minimum credit card payments haven't been enacted yet by 90% of the third tier MC/Visa providers. Jan 1st is the date. So that's something to look forward to also.

[SteveLightspeed]

Or course, don't discount the economic affect of Hurricane Katrina either... lots of people's discretionary income is being squeezed right now

great post,

AVERAGE CC debt of 9300$, JEESUS CHRIST

that is without their mortgage

[latinasojourn]

Originally Posted by TheDoc

While we have been ok with sales we have had some rather odd days.. With that we started to update more yet retention seems to slowly be slippin down the drain.. So I started to talk with Steve Lightspeed and a couple others about the problem and found out some nasty info...


Over 200 million reissued cards this summer..

40 million from Master Card's frauded..
http://money.cnn.com/2005/06/17/news/master_card/

Higher minimum payouts on credit card payments. "Average household credit card debt was about $9,300 last year"
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05273/580132.stm

Credit card hacks are on the rise so reissuing cards is on the rise.
http://australianit.news.com.au/arti...tml?from=r ss

And now the rising price of gas..

Moreless this means a decline in rebills and a blow to fresh sales..

very accurate analysis. and you are seeing plenty of guys signup and immediately cancel their recurring so they don't forget---on great sites with lots of content.

single big ticket non-recurring packages are doing OK.

[AlienQ - BANNED FOR LIFE]

I agree with the above statements.

[TheDoc]

Originally Posted by latinasojourn

very accurate analysis. and you are seeing plenty of guys signup and immediately cancel their recurring so they don't forget---on great sites with lots of content.

single big ticket non-recurring packages are doing OK.

Yeah, really drives me nuts how many cancel even before they log into the site for the first time..

[DWB]

my declined re-bills have been very high so far this year.

[rowan]

Credit cards are evil if you don't have the means to fund them. I remember reading that a balance of $2000 at an average interest rate would take something like 40 years to pay off in full, if you paid only the minimum each month.

One of those articles mentions cards going -ve with the interest and fees being higher than the minimum payment; I've never heard of that before. That's even sadder.

[pocketkangaroo]

I think this can be all tied into how bad our economy really is. We'll never really know the true economic tailspin our country has gone through under Bush till he is out of office.

[High Quality]

Hmm, sorry to hear that doc.

www.Recurcash.com is experiencing explosive growth though, can't say I'm seeing the same problems bro

[TheDoc]

Originally Posted by High Quality

Hmm, sorry to hear that doc.

www.Recurcash.com is experiencing explosive growth though, can't say I'm seeing the same problems bro

Isn't your program rather new? Of course you would see growth..

[mrthumbs]

Originally Posted by High Quality

Hmm, sorry to hear that doc.

www.Recurcash.com is experiencing explosive growth though, can't say I'm seeing the same problems bro

Nice plug.. but going from 15 rebills to 17 per months isnt really whats being discussed here.

[imageman]

One word * BUSH *

[mrthumbs]

Originally Posted by imageman

One word * BUSH *

No, 2 words: "BASIC ECONOMY"..

Things go up and down and up and down.. thats how it works...remember how things were in the 80's?

[Pipecrew]

This is true, my card of 5 years just got a new number and new expiry, all the other stuff i had was cancelled automatically by visa.

[Drake]

Great info, thanks for sharing. The growing average household debt, not even including the mounting credit card debt is bound to effect us.

[MandyBlake]

that totally makes sense.
thank you for the post!

[Snake Doctor]

I'm not seeing an overall dip in revenue, however August and September were flat compared to June and July.

Things are usually slower in the summer and then pick up in the fall.....I'm not seeing my usual fall increase though.
I can live with "flat" for awhile, hopefully that's as bad as it'll get.

[seeric]

wait till sponsors start killing their pps options and we go to a revshare industry model because of it when it gets too bad. i can tell you that it makes zero business sense to pay out 25 to as high as 100 dollars a sale if the trends show that people are cancelling at such a high rate as soon as they buy the trial. i guess we shall see. theres alot of very very smart program owners and if it doesn't make dollars it doesn't make sense.

jsut my from the hip opinion and not really thought into deeply.

[pocketkangaroo]

Originally Posted by mrthumbs

No, 2 words: "BASIC ECONOMY"..

Things go up and down and up and down.. thats how it works...remember how things were in the 80's?

80's? Wasn't that a free wielding, high spending republican in office? See any similarities?

[Number1Thumb]

dating is on fire, sorry for you porn guys

[Jensen]

banks seemes weird to me .. visa and mastercard comes up with secure passwords decided by the users themselves + new smart cards making it impossible to copy.. still most people use old cards and haven't heard of the passwords? get it done for the love of...

[Martin]

Good post.

[pornguy]

We had an amazing day yesterday, but it has slowed in general.

[BVF]

Originally Posted by A1R3K

wait till sponsors start killing their pps options and we go to a revshare industry model because of it when it gets too bad. i can tell you that it makes zero business sense to pay out 25 to as high as 100 dollars a sale if the trends show that people are cancelling at such a high rate as soon as they buy the trial. .

they've been saying that for years. Only change I've seen is that the average payouts have been lowered from $35 to $30...Back in the day a PPS couldn't even mention a $30 payout. Now folks are even going down to $20-$25

[TheDoc]

Originally Posted by A1R3K

wait till sponsors start killing their pps options and we go to a revshare industry model because of it when it gets too bad. i can tell you that it makes zero business sense to pay out 25 to as high as 100 dollars a sale if the trends show that people are cancelling at such a high rate as soon as they buy the trial. i guess we shall see. theres alot of very very smart program owners and if it doesn't make dollars it doesn't make sense.

jsut my from the hip opinion and not really thought into deeply.

PPS vs Revshare... PPS can earn the program more.. straight up.

On revshare I have to continue to pay you on the rebills, forever.. The difference is on pps once you stop sending joins the rebills are mine, the members areas can have more upsells, more exits, more extra BS for me to make money on outside of having to worry with retention..

We have been thinking about dropping the revshare and going to PPS, more money in our pockets and less to worry with on retention.

[blackmonsters]

The best way to get rebills is to kill trial offers. Surfers cancel immediatley from the trial before the even know if they like the site; and once cancelled then why sign up again?

Full price joins means the surfer is at least going to be a member long enough to know if they like the content. I don't think I will ever use a trial on any of my paysites. I tried them and it was hard to make money that way.
Many surfers see a trial and think "how can this possibly be any good for this low price; it's got to be a rip off" and therefore don't sign up.

What kind of idiot joins one paysite over another because one has $2.95 trial and the other has $4.95 trial? A cheap fucking bastard that is going to cancel anyway; that's who.

Death to the trial sign up!
Death to the "big movie" gallery. Go back to shity 5 sec clips.

Does any one sign up to see pictures anymore? If not then why are we even using them in hosted galleries?

How about free sites stop acting stupid and get some money making standards like:
*Gallery equal one shity movie clip
*TGP = 50 galleries or less

- Of course good luck trying to get people to do what makes sense for all
of us.

[blackmonsters]

[QUOTE=TheDoc]
On revshare I have to continue to pay you on the rebills, forever.. The difference is on pps once you stop sending joins the rebills are mineQUOTE]

Yep, but when I'm in a slump and not sending you joins and not getting a check a old rev-share that I used to promote six months ago sends me a check to give to the landlord who is beating on my door. Then I remeber why I used the rev-share and put their links back up and drop links to PPS.

Rev-share programs retain webmasters longer. I have never quit a rev-share program that did not have trials. I have quit many that had trials. I have quit countless pay per sign up programs. Most rememberable is Intergal with their $100 per sign up. hehehehe. what a fucking joke.

I remeber when ARS was my major sponsor but now I don't even know what an ARS link looks like. I have never quit blacksonblondes and just when I think I might quit I get a check with a few rebills from their three month membership sign ups and come back to reality.

I think you remeber massivecocks.com hehehe. Was kicking ass for me until they went to trials and 200 exit consoles. I use to send them 60 sign ups a month. I think I send them 1 sign up per year now. Somehow I don't believe they are making more money.

[Nismo]

Everyone should read this thread.

[rowan]

Originally Posted by High Quality

Hmm, sorry to hear that doc.

www.Recurcash.com is experiencing explosive growth though, can't say I'm seeing the same problems bro

Maybe because you're redirecting all the traffic from your last program which quietly disappeared.

[Mako]

Originally Posted by blackmonsters

The best way to get rebills is to kill trial offers. Surfers cancel immediatley from the trial before the even know if they like the site; and once cancelled then why sign up again?

The best way to get rebills is to do LIMITED ACCESS trials, period. There are just too many people out there wary of throwing down $24.95 up front without ever having seen your site before.

Instead, with LIMITED ACCESS areas, they WANT to recur, and actually click to upgrade to a full membership themselves once they get into the trial-member's area and determine that whatever girl they were attracted to in the gallery, or freesite promo, isn't available for their piddly $1.95. And if the area is marketed correctly, and has a strong amount of legitimate content, it's a no-brainer for the surfer who has their cock in their hand and is looking to get-er-done.

Best way to go from 30% trial-to-full conversions, to 50%+ trial-to-full conversions, overnight. The faster the rest of you get on board and start doing it, making the surfer expect to go through it, the better it will be for all of us.

[xNetworx]

Originally Posted by High Quality

Hmm, sorry to hear that doc.

www.Recurcash.com is experiencing explosive growth though, can't say I'm seeing the same problems bro

Your site had 122 overture searches in Aug. Unless you closed the site, it had to have some growth.

[Tat2Jr]

Originally Posted by mrthumbs

No, 2 words: "BASIC ECONOMY"..

Things go up and down and up and down.. thats how it works...remember how things were in the 80's?

You mean HUGE government spending, and Trickle down economics STILL don't work??? Go figure. The 80's???? Geesh, say Reagan when you mean Reagan.

[Mako]

Originally Posted by Tat2Jr

You mean HUGE government spending, and Trickle down economics STILL don't work??? Go figure. The 80's???? Geesh, say Reagan when you mean Reagan.

Stay on topic. Take the bullshit politics to another thread, or better yet, another board.

[JD]

September has been my best month this year. I just hope October is better

[Tat2Jr]

Originally Posted by Mako

Stay on topic. Take the bullshit politics to another thread, or better yet, another board.

Oh sorry! I thought we were talking about how the economy was affecting signups?

[Snake Doctor]

Originally Posted by Mako

The best way to get rebills is to do LIMITED ACCESS trials, period. There are just too many people out there wary of throwing down $24.95 up front without ever having seen your site before.

Instead, with LIMITED ACCESS areas, they WANT to recur, and actually click to upgrade to a full membership themselves once they get into the trial-member's area and determine that whatever girl they were attracted to in the gallery, or freesite promo, isn't available for their piddly $1.95. And if the area is marketed correctly, and has a strong amount of legitimate content, it's a no-brainer for the surfer who has their cock in their hand and is looking to get-er-done.

Best way to go from 30% trial-to-full conversions, to 50%+ trial-to-full conversions, overnight. The faster the rest of you get on board and start doing it, making the surfer expect to go through it, the better it will be for all of us.

Agreed, limited trials are the way to go.
When you get a "trial subscription" to a magazine you get a few issues, not every issue they've printed since inception. You read a little bit and decide if you want to become a full subscriber to get it all.

If you can sell a site well with no trials then that's definitely the way to go, but most sites will make much more money offering limited trials with an upgrade feature than not offering trials at all.

[VeriSexy]

Originally Posted by rowan

Maybe because you're redirecting all the traffic from your last program which quietly disappeared.

[spider_x]

How much longer are we going to stand and watch as the government uses incidents, like manmade earthquakes and hurricanes (www.fromthewilderness.com, search for "HAARP" and yes it is a real DOD project,lobby to shut that shit down as well!), blowing up federal buildings and pearl harbor to disrupt our economy? It boils down to the same result, rich get richer and poor get poorer while the middleman gets to jack up the insurance and interest suppository through the roof. And the shit gets real predictable too. Next year the Sears tower will blow up on 6/6/6 so Silverstein can collect the insurance on all the damage. There's only so much us webmasters can do, but we can at least fortify our combined strength against new bills and legislation. What will trigger the next ban against ALL porn? A new study that indicates taking your clothes off, even to go to sleep, can give you cancer? Or how about this, a man watched a porn film and then went out and had sex with 15 women in one night. That's just wrong. Video games should be banned too yeah thats it. Fuckin dumbasses.

__________________________________________________ ___________

http://www.rompqueens.com

[KingK7]

Originally Posted by spider_x

How much longer blablabla blablabla blablabla Fuckin dumbasses.

__________________________________________________ ___________

http://www.rompqueens.com

[blackfeet]

Originally Posted by blackmonsters

The best way to get rebills is to kill trial offers. Surfers cancel immediatley from the trial before the even know if they like the site; and once cancelled then why sign up again?

Full price joins means the surfer is at least going to be a member long enough to know if they like the content. I don't think I will ever use a trial on any of my paysites.

i can never understand why webmasters use those trial offers nowadays.
even i as a webmaster will sign up for a cheap trial and unsubscribe right away. if we do it, the visitor will also. if i see a site i like and it has no trial and i really like that site, i will sign up.

some accounts i have, i use pay per sign-up with NO CONSOLES or rev share with NO CONSOLES. alot of these visitors will pay full price if they really like your site and STAY signed up. those are the sales i want.

if the economy is good, trials are great. if the economy is bad, charge them full price.

[tony286]

great post

[Mako]

Originally Posted by blackfeet

i can never understand why webmasters use those trial offers nowadays.
even i as a webmaster will sign up for a cheap trial and unsubscribe right away. if we do it, the visitor will also. if i see a site i like and it has no trial and i really like that site, i will sign up.

some accounts i have, i use pay per sign-up with NO CONSOLES or rev share with NO CONSOLES. alot of these visitors will pay full price if they really like your site and STAY signed up. those are the sales i want.

if the economy is good, trials are great. if the economy is bad, charge them full price.

Wrong. Thanks to endless scamming and bullshit member areas consisting of a few streams and no downloadable content, surfers are FAR less open to going "up front" with $24.95 just to get 30-days access to a site they're not familiar with. Doesn't matter how good the sales pitch is, or how good the promo content is, though those do help, if the site isn't branded, it's not getting a 30-Day signup.

As a test, which I personally have done (have you?) take the same two sites, put one with $24.95 for 30 days only, no other join options, then the second site with $24.95 for 30-Days OR a $1.95 1-Day LIMITED TRIAL (as outlined in my post above, only give them access to 5% of the member's area content, but SHOW them that "full" members get the other 95%).

The second site will absolutely outperform the first by a large margin.

Limited trials go a long way towards improving the situation, in fact, I've found that having limited trials actually INCREASES the percentage of people who signup instead for the $24.95/30-Day option upfront, because they want to avoide the $39.95 recur hit from the $1.95 trial. It acts in a way that I didn't expect...Monthly membership subscriptions increased from 18% to 36%, the second I added $1.95 Limited Trials with Recurs at higher rates. Pretty slick.

[BVF]

Originally Posted by Mako

Wrong. Thanks to endless scamming and bullshit member areas consisting of a few streams and no downloadable content, surfers are FAR less open to going "up front" with $24.95 just to get 30-days access to a site they're not familiar with. Doesn't matter how good the sales pitch is, or how good the promo content is, though those do help, if the site isn't branded, it's not getting a 30-Day signup.

As a test, which I personally have done (have you?) take the same two sites, put one with $24.95 for 30 days only, no other join options, then the second site with $24.95 for 30-Days OR a $1.95 1-Day LIMITED TRIAL (as outlined in my post above, only give them access to 5% of the member's area content, but SHOW them that "full" members get the other 95%).

The second site will absolutely outperform the first by a large margin.

Limited trials go a long way towards improving the situation, in fact, I've found that having limited trials actually INCREASES the percentage of people who signup instead for the $24.95/30-Day option upfront, because they want to avoide the $39.95 recur hit from the $1.95 trial. It acts in a way that I didn't expect...Monthly membership subscriptions increased from 18% to 36%, the second I added $1.95 Limited Trials with Recurs at higher rates. Pretty slick.

Or I could take just one of my videos, slap it behind a freenetpass thingy, and get $15 for every FREE signup and inside of that joint, have an upsell to the main site for full price....

Win/Win.

[Giorgio_Xo]

Originally Posted by blackmonsters

The best way to get rebills is to kill trial offers. Surfers cancel immediatley from the trial before the even know if they like the site; and once cancelled then why sign up again?

Full price joins means the surfer is at least going to be a member long enough to know if they like the content. I don't think I will ever use a trial on any of my paysites. I tried them and it was hard to make money that way.
Many surfers see a trial and think "how can this possibly be any good for this low price; it's got to be a rip off" and therefore don't sign up.

What kind of idiot joins one paysite over another because one has $2.95 trial and the other has $4.95 trial? A cheap fucking bastard that is going to cancel anyway; that's who.

Death to the trial sign up!
Death to the "big movie" gallery. Go back to shity 5 sec clips.

Does any one sign up to see pictures anymore? If not then why are we even using them in hosted galleries?

How about free sites stop acting stupid and get some money making standards like:
*Gallery equal one shity movie clip
*TGP = 50 galleries or less

- Of course good luck trying to get people to do what makes sense for all
of us.

Alot of surfers just want to pop a nut. They don't view the membership as $20-$40 a month but $2-$5 for the nut of the moment.

[INever]

War used to be good for the economy, but the only jobs out there are for mercs.

[Paparazzi]

Originally Posted by TheDoc

While we have been ok with sales we have had some rather odd days.. With that we started to update more yet retention seems to slowly be slippin down the drain.. So I started to talk with Steve Lightspeed and a couple others about the problem and found out some nasty info...


Over 200 million reissued cards this summer..

40 million from Master Card's frauded..
http://money.cnn.com/2005/06/17/news/master_card/

Higher minimum payouts on credit card payments. "Average household credit card debt was about $9,300 last year"
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05273/580132.stm

Credit card hacks are on the rise so reissuing cards is on the rise.
http://australianit.news.com.au/arti...tml?from=r ss

And now the rising price of gas..

Moreless this means a decline in rebills and a blow to fresh sales..

yeah my mastercard was one of these 200 million and got a new one. Also I got a new visa the other day with a chip for more security. Imagine when all these cards will get reissued worldwide... A huge drop in recurring charges. All this because of hackers getting in databases, putting scans on atms etc

[Mako]

Originally Posted by BVF

Or I could take just one of my videos, slap it behind a freenetpass thingy, and get $15 for every FREE signup and inside of that joint, have an upsell to the main site for full price....

Win/Win.

Very true.

[bigdog]

another option is to give free membership access forever and hope they upgrade at a later time, the new free trial