Ccbill vs. Epoch - I made the test!

[andrej_NDC]

I have a stable spot with a similar number of traffic and sales every day. And the result is interresting, because ccbill was better. On the best days ccbill was 30+% better, on the average and worse days it was the same as epoch's average.

So, if someone is telling, ccbill is scrubbing too much, the epoch even more.

Some ppl are telling me, they convert better with epoch sponsors, well, then try to count your clicks, because epoch doesnt and the sponsors can show you what they want...

[Makingcoin]

How much traffic did you send for this test and for how long?

[teomaxxx]

bump for andrej stats, and yes ofcourse sig spot secured

[andrej_NDC]

Originally Posted by Makingcoin

How much traffic did you send for this test and for how long?

15-20k daily...long enough
maybe the results would be even more similar after months...but the point was to prove that epoch doesnt accept more sales than ccbill

[Shap]

Originally Posted by andrej_NDC

I have a stable spot with a similar number of traffic and sales every day. And the result is interresting, because ccbill was better. On the best days ccbill was 30+% better, on the average and worse days it was the same as epoch's average.

So, if someone is telling, ccbill is scrubbing too much, the epoch even more.

Some ppl are telling me, they convert better with epoch sponsors, well, then try to count your clicks, because epoch doesnt and the sponsors can show you what they want...

I've seen the EXACT same thing. My guess is that is because of preferred scrub settings on one vs the other. If paycom were your primary you'd be on their preferred scrub and probably the opposite for ccbill and the numbers would probably be reversed. I know a few people will tell me I'm crazy but I'd put alot of money on that being the case.

[andrej_NDC]

Originally Posted by shap

I've seen the EXACT same thing. My guess is that is because of preferred scrub settings on one vs the other. If paycom were your primary you'd be on their preferred scrub and probably the opposite for ccbill and the numbers would probably be reversed. I know a few people will tell me I'm crazy but I'd put alot of money on that being the case.

Could be, their numbers would be probably very similar in a perfect test.

[Validus]

Interesting test

[Shap]

Originally Posted by andrej_NDC

Could be, their numbers would be probably very similar in a perfect test.

Exactly. Your numbers with ccbill justify allowing more successful transactions. If you had two sites running one on each processor and worked up to the preferred scrub on both then swapped then you could get the true results

[aico]

Originally Posted by andrej_NDC

15-20k daily...long enough
maybe the results would be even more similar after months...but the point was to prove that epoch doesnt accept more sales than ccbill

Did someone say Epoch accepted more sales? (serious question, not trying to be snide). I am sure if you did the test for long enough the results would be very similar between the two, as I am sure that Epoch and CCBill do not sychronize their scrubbing days.

But, good test anyway.

[andrej_NDC]

Originally Posted by aico

Did someone say Epoch accepted more sales?

many affiliates think so...its based on the past(more years ago), but things have changed

[DamageX]

Originally Posted by shap

Exactly. Your numbers with ccbill justify allowing more successful transactions. If you had two sites running one on each processor and worked up to the preferred scrub on both then swapped then you could get the true results

That would be a good way to finally put a myth to sleep.

[GoNe]

Never had a late payment from ccbill that I know. Ccbill rocks!

[bigdog]

sponsors will continue to use epoch as primary because with the xsells and one clicks you are going to make more

[andrej_NDC]

Originally Posted by bigdog

sponsors will continue to use epoch as primary because with the xsells and one clicks you are going to make more

yes, thats something ccbill doesnt offer...but I dont miss that

[hjnet]

Very good thread, thx for sharing your numbers Andrej

Another thing that would be interesting to know as an affiliate is if one bad sponsor (with an unusual high number of CBs) in your CCBill affiliate account would influent the scrubbig rate on your entire affiliate account (including other good sponsors)?

[Serious-Partner]

thanks for sharing Andrej
very interesting info for us

[phonesex]

thanks for the info.

[Theo]

hjnet, i'm sure it won't. All these processes take place on paysite level from my understanding.

I've heard all kind of theories, but none of them comes from people running their own paysites. For example that ccbill eu has lower scrubb rate from ccbill usa n' vice versa. Another theory is that with epoch you get sales even when your sites suck n' so on. All of them do not stand true from real experience.

For our current affiliates n' potentials ones let me remind you that our interest in sales is common one. From the moment a cc processor will be a real issue on our business be assured we will come up with a solution.

shap,where's Kevin?

[mn]

From a programs point of view I think its the same sales wise.

But the problem is for affiliates signed up with ccbill. They will be scrubbed differently depending on a lot of factors.

Eg. Webmaster A is setup to be scrubbed one way. Webmaster B is setup to be scrubbed another way.

I don't send much traffic to ccbill sponsors since I must be on their heavy scrub list.

If Im payed directly from a sponsor using ccbill (signed up directly to a program so ccbill doesn't know who I am) the sales are really good though

Thats the problem with ccbill.

[David - PG]

"Scrub".. sounds like a big evil thing, yet it's no rocket science

1. Country negative lists. Epoch blocks more countries than CCBill (i think). Check amounts of countries such as Brazil, Argentina, Costa Rica, New Zealand etc. in both your Epoch & CCBill logs. CCbill is more laid back on these countries.
2. Matching bank country vs. IP country vs. entered country/address. Not sure what CCbill or others do in specific, but you can setup different combinations for different regions or even countries or card types. E.e.

"All Visa transactions from Australia must match country info" (ip country hahahaha bank country hahahaha entered country info), otherwise a decline is issued.

9 out of 10 declines are "not enough funds" declines, so get over this scrub bullshit. People don't have enough cash in their cards that's why declines happen. The rest is a 2-5% difference in volume that might get back to you in refund & CB charges later.

[bigdog]

Originally Posted by David - PG

"Scrub".. sounds like a big evil thing, yet it's no rocket science

1. Country negative lists. Epoch blocks more countries than CCBill (i think). Check amounts of countries such as Brazil, Argentina, Costa Rica, New Zealand etc. in both your Epoch & CCBill logs. CCbill is more laid back on these countries.
2. Matching bank country vs. IP country vs. entered country/address. Not sure what CCbill or others do in specific, but you can setup different combinations for different regions or even countries or card types. E.e.

"All Visa transactions from Australia must match country info" (ip country hahahaha bank country hahahaha entered country info), otherwise a decline is issued.

9 out of 10 declines are "not enough funds" declines, so get over this scrub bullshit. People don't have enough cash in their cards that's why declines happen. The rest is a 2-5% difference in volume that might get back to you in refund & CB charges later.

i noticed perfectgonzo is using their own merchant account the other day, are you doing better with it then ccbill and epoch?

[aleck]

what about ccbileu & epoch.eu

[zanex]

nice thread...thanks for sharing this

[Markit]

Go CCbill

[pornpf69]

thx for sharing this info!

[slapass]

Originally Posted by David - PG

9 out of 10 declines are "not enough funds" declines, so get over this scrub bullshit. People don't have enough cash in their cards that's why declines happen. The rest is a 2-5% difference in volume that might get back to you in refund & CB charges later.

9 out of 10? wow! can anyone else verify this? What about the big list? where if they have chargedback before or caused problems they cannot sign up?

[Theo]

Originally Posted by slapass

9 out of 10? wow! can anyone else verify this? What about the big list? where if they have chargedback before or caused problems they cannot sign up?

that's very small % and if you start accepting sales from people that have done a CB soon or late you'll be on trouble. I'm really confident about that.

[MarkMan]

well , I can give my 2cent.. i used to own a merchant account.. . from what i have seen .. no matter if you have your own merchant account or you use a 3rd party .. you still have to deal with a lot of BS.. the bank that issues you the merchant account have their own BS .. and you must learn which people to send to which processor /merchant account .. and once you get this down to a science. they change the rules and you got to learn it all over again.

some good things that are happening is this Cell phone payment systems that are coming up around the world. This would change everything .. no more charge backs .. a way to charge people from the entire world.

in a way this is going to be so good for our business, in another way it means some big ass companies are going to enter the market to compete for this new found $$$.

[andrej_NDC]

Originally Posted by Soul_Rebel

that's very small % and if you start accepting sales from people that have done a CB soon or late you'll be on trouble. I'm really confident about that.

yup, people who chargebacked before, will do it again...its better to ban them

[whatif_3]

This is a very informative thread.

[marec]

thanx andrej !

always knew that !

[Kimmykim]

People who chargeback instead of calling for a refund should be banned. Banks who offer multiple chargebacks to customers who call up to question a charge should be scrubbed more severely than banks who tell a customer to call for a refund.

Sites who generate more refunds, credits, chargebacks and headaches should not get the same level of scrubbing as a clean site that doesn't cause any issues for the processor.

Affiliates who create the same sort of problems should have their sales scrubbed more thoroughly than those who don't.

Scrubbing is more like rocket science than any other part of this industry... too many chargebacks and you're toast. Too far below the allowed percentage and you are letting good sales go down the drain.

[Doctor Dre]

Originally Posted by shap

Exactly. Your numbers with ccbill justify allowing more successful transactions. If you had two sites running one on each processor and worked up to the preferred scrub on both then swapped then you could get the true results

That makes a lot of sence ... keeping the good customers with better ratios ... and make sure 2ndary have lower CB ratios ;)

[AlienQ - BANNED FOR LIFE]

Newbies pay attention, this is some real good reading.

[Brujah]

Allow me to play devil's advocate.

You tested it as a program owner right ? That doesn't reflect what an affiliate can/will experience. There's still some truth in myth. Many have experienced lower conversions and lower payouts as affiliates, pushing CCBill sponsors. If the program owner won't try another processor, we compare and tell whether it's the processor or another issue.

If what mn said above is true, I wouldn't want to push CCBill sponsors either. KimmyKim said this "Affiliates who create the same sort of problems should have their sales scrubbed more thoroughly than those who don't." which I agree with however, if done on a specific (affiliate+sponsor) basis and not across the board for all sites.

[DamageX]

Originally Posted by Brujah

Allow me to play devil's advocate.

You tested it as a program owner right ? That doesn't reflect what an affiliate can/will experience. There's still some truth in myth. Many have experienced lower conversions and lower payouts as affiliates, pushing CCBill sponsors. If the program owner won't try another processor, we compare and tell whether it's the processor or another issue.

If what mn said above is true, I wouldn't want to push CCBill sponsors either. KimmyKim said this "Affiliates who create the same sort of problems should have their sales scrubbed more thoroughly than those who don't." which I agree with however, if done on a specific (affiliate+sponsor) basis and not across the board for all sites.

The devil's a webmaster?

[andrej_NDC]

Originally Posted by Brujah

Allow me to play devil's advocate.

You tested it as a program owner right ? That doesn't reflect what an affiliate can/will experience.

I did the test with affiliate accounts I created for it. So I saw it from the affiliate point of view.

[bigdog]

andrej will you be adding cascading to NDC?

[andrej_NDC]

Originally Posted by bigdog

andrej will you be adding cascading to NDC?

Im thinking about cascading software, where the processors would continue to handle the payouts and affiliates could also continue using the old link codes(ccbill only or epoch only), if they want to

[DamageX]

Originally Posted by andrej_NDC

Im thinking about cascading software, where the processors would continue to handle the payouts and affiliates could also continue using the old link codes(ccbill only or epoch only), if they want to

Do EpochEU handle the payouts these days?

[andrej_NDC]

Originally Posted by DamageX

Do EpochEU handle the payouts these days?

not yet, thats why Im trying a different processor right now...epoch EU would be added when they solve their problems

[RogerV]

Originally Posted by shap

Exactly. Your numbers with ccbill justify allowing more successful transactions. If you had two sites running one on each processor and worked up to the preferred scrub on both then swapped then you could get the true results

You get more sales on a trial from epoch because they have a tpost form but more trials to full with ccbill

[imageman]

Almost daily i see post about scrub rates and CCbill or Epoch and i serious doubt the fluctuations have a lot to do with just scrubbing.
We have our own merchant account as well as CCbill programs and Epoch programs and having your own merchant account is by no means the answer to higher sales. For example if you don't use someone's verification portal ( scrub list ) you will have to do this yourself 24/7 it isn't easy believe me.. I would guess CCbill and Epoch have the most comprehensive verification system on the web and its necessary to control charge backs.

Sign-ups are influenced by so many factors including holidays, time of year, site design, speed of access to site, quality of tour, position of join buttons ( CCbill on top of Epoch or vice versa makes a big difference ), proliferation of adult site over the last 5 years, quantity of free images available on the web, keeping site up to date, number of updates per week, exclusive or shared content, traffic sources, time surfers receive their paychecks, The list goes on and on and while im sure the scrub rates change and do have some influence on sales it is not the main reason sales fluctuate daily

[Paparazzi]

Originally Posted by andrej_NDC

Im thinking about cascading software, where the processors would continue to handle the payouts and affiliates could also continue using the old link codes(ccbill only or epoch only), if they want to

tushy cash have it this way, you choose which one you want primary ccbill or epoch. You can also continue with the old ccbill codes if you want The thing I HATE with paycom is that you can't merge accounts, they don't send wires and correct me if I'm wrong can't setup payout limit This is why I'm still using the old ccbill codes for tushy cash...

[AmeliaG]

Originally Posted by RogerV

You get more sales on a trial from epoch because they have a tpost form but more trials to full with ccbill

tpost form?

[NETbilling]

Originally Posted by imageman

We have our own merchant account as well as CCbill programs and Epoch programs and having your own merchant account is by no means the answer to higher sales. For example if you don't use someone's verification portal ( scrub list ) you will have to do this yourself 24/7 it isn't easy believe me.. I would guess CCbill and Epoch have the most comprehensive verification system on the web and its necessary to control charge backs.

Having your own merchant account certainly gives you more control to maximize conversions, receive daily payouts, ect... However, you should use a gateway and calll center that will handle customer service,. processing and scrubbing for you. Nobody should try to do it on their own unless they have all of these factors in place.

That is why we are here and very successful since 1998.

Mitch

[andrej_NDC]

Originally Posted by Paparazzi

tushy cash have it this way, you choose which one you want primary ccbill or epoch. You can also continue with the old ccbill codes if you want The thing I HATE with paycom is that you can't merge accounts, they don't send wires and correct me if I'm wrong can't setup payout limit This is why I'm still using the old ccbill codes for tushy cash...

Are you sure epoch doesnt send wires to affiliates? And I think you can already merge accounts with them, not 100% sure about it though.

[ScoobyDooby]

i run a paysite doing reasonable volume. We have tested a 50/50 split of sending the initial join to ccbill versus epoch and epoch hands down pushed more transactions through. The scrub at paycom is in my opinion actually more sophisticated and the reason fewer people complete transactions at ccbill is because the forms are much longer and more complex. Paycom's join form is the epitomy of simplicity.

[Screaming]

Great thread, thanks.

[tracytn]

If you have your own merchant account, let Vindicia manage your chargebacks. We prevent and dispute chargebacks so you can focus on your core business of making money. Let Vindicia fight & win your chargebacks. Our win rate is 65-80% and we don't get paid unless we win your CB's. We offer a chargeback dispute service, fraud screening and consultative services to improve business practices, reduce your chargeback rate and increase revenue recovery.

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[email protected]
www.vindicia.com